"I Was a Follower of Ikegami-sensei."

Translation by: Harley Acres

This lengthy interview is taken from a series of Shogakukan books called Mangaka Bon. Each book in the series is focused on the career and work of a particular manga artist. Volume 12 of the series, Ryoichi Ikegami Book (池上遼一本), focused on the career of Ryoichi Ikegami and features his early manga as well as a short story by Shigeru Mizuku about Ikegami.

So I told the editorial director of this book, "If you are going to focus on Men's Group (男組/Otokogumi), you should talk with Takahashi-san. He said, "No, I think Takahashi-san prefers the earlier works." I honestly thought that might be a good idea too though (laugh). What was the first work that made you aware of Ryoichi Ikegami as an author?

Takahashi: In terms of artwork, was it Summer (夏/Natsu)? The one with the flies. That was the first one. That was the first work I read by Ikegami-sensei.

It's a work published in GARO in 1967.

Takahashi: I was probably about 10 years old when I read GARO in the waiting room of an otolaryngologist's office.

Did you already know you wanted to be a mangaka at that time?

Takahashi: No, not at all. I just liked to draw pictures at that point.

Of course, you also read manga from random shonen magazines?

Takahashi: I used to read Osomatsu-kun (おそ松くん) and Obake no Q-taro (オバケのQ太郎) a lot. I also read Tezuka's works. ^[1]

Around 1960, that's right. It was the first golden age of Shonen Sunday. And that was when you picked up Garo for the first time...

Takahashi: Well, did I know about the existence of Garo then, I wonder? ^[2]

That's pretty amazing for a 10 year old, isn't it?

Takahashi: Well back then, the total number of manga magazines was small. Garo was also quite well-known, so I was interested in it.

But a 10 year old girl who is attracted to Summer is pretty amazing.

Takahashi: It was a very impactful work, so even children would have "googled" it.

The design wasn't all there, though was it?

Takahashi: But I really like Ikegami-sensei's drawings from those days.

From his debut as a rental manga artist, I think it was only about a year to winning the Newcomer Award for the work he did in Garo. ^[3]

Takahashi: Yes, that's right. In the beginning, there was a little bit of, how do you say it? I don't know if I would call it a "Gegege Sense," but I think there was a little bit of that (laughs).. Well, the lines were thick, too. I think it was when they were beginning to be refined.

Since he had been an assistant to Shigeru Mizuki I am sure that there were a lot of solid parts in his drawings. It must have been because of that influence. ^[4]

Takahashi: I think now that there are no unnecessary lines in Summer, even though it is a story in that style.

Other than Summer, were there any other works in Garo that caught your attention?

Takahashi: Well, let's talk about The Globe (地球儀/Chikyuugi).

As yes, The Globe. That was in 1960, the same year as Summer.

Takahashi: I've read the Ryoichi Ikegami special in Garo many, many times. So I probably like them all. Well, I guess there was no way for me to escape any of them (laughs).

I guess that was the mental landscape of Ikegami-sensei at the time.

Takahashi: Do you think that was the case? I was getting wrapped up in it.

It's more like a feeling of falling into it?

Takahashi: I was at an inn the first time I read White Liquid (白い液体/Shiroi Ekitai)...

Slowly the characters were getting eaten away little by little.

Takahashi: Oh my gosh, and all of their teeth had fallen out.

White Liquid is a masterpiece. It's incredible that he made something like that when he was in his early 20s.

Takahashi: Yeah.

So, when I read his work originally, I thought that he was a pure literature-oriented person (laughs). When I asked him he said, "No, actually, I wanted to be an assistant over at Takao Saito's place." ^[5] So that's it. He was always interested in entertainment from the very beginning. At the time, he was reading Haruhiko Oyabu and Futaro Yamada. He said, "Oh, what? You thought I was reading Zenzo Kasai. Or Masuji Ibuse?" (laughs) ^[6]

Takahashi: So he happened to join Mizuki-sensei's office by happenstance?

It's fate, isn't it? As a result, he was lucky enough to go to Mizuki-sensei's studio and work with people who think about all kinds of challenging things.

I guess you could say that it gave birth to something different from his previous mindset. If he had gone to Saito-san, he would have drawn entertainment in a more straightforward manner. So, to put it another way, I feel that the individuality of the artist might not have emerged. So, when did you encounter Ikegami's works next?

Takahashi: According to my recollection, it was something like, I Don't Need Anything! (なんにもいらない!/Nannimo Iranai!) in Shonen Sunday...

I Don't Need Anything! So that was around '71.

Takahashi: I would say that it is also a bit absurdist. I guess you could call it "hot," but it's not the "heat" of hot-bloodedness. I liked it because I thought it was like Ikegami-sensei.

I think only a few people would mention I Don't Need Anything!

Takahashi: Eh heh heh heh.

You really read every issue of Shonen Sunday, didn't you, Takahashi-san?

Takahashi: At first, my brother bought Shonen Sunday, but because he ran out of money he stopped buying it. So I decided I'll buy it instead (laughs).

So, there was a time when Garo was Ikegami-san's main medium for publishing his works. And then, after a few years Ikegami-san made his debut in a commercial magazine, Shonen King. Do you know anything about that?

Takahashi: I didn't read Shonen King. Just Shonen Sunday. ^[7]

Right, as you were saying, you were only getting Shonen Sunday (laughs).

Takahashi: Yes, that's right. After that, he drew for Shonen Magazine right?

Shonen Magazine, ah yes.

Takahashi: Shonen Magazine came after Shonen Sunday. After the serialization of Youthful Ardor (青春徒博/Seishun Tobaku) in Shonen Sunday ended, he started a period drama in Shonen Magazine called An no Oni Onna (安 の鬼女). I remember that. The story ends with her becoming a human sacrifice (laughs).

And A White Flower Blooming in the Soil (土中に咲いた白い花/Dochu ni saita shiroi hana).

Takahashi: And then, Lonely Rin (ひとりぼっちのリン/Hitoribocchi no Rin) and so on. I was already following them all then (laughs).

Let me backtrack a bit. He did a series of articles for Monthly Shonen Magazine and they were not very successful. Then, he went back to Garo and drew Love of Oen (おえんの恋/Oen no koi). When I saw it, I was shocked. I thought, "Wow, there is an artist like this! I had seen his work from time to time before.

Takahashi: Had he already drawn Adachigahara (安達ヶ原) before Love of Oen...?

No, he hadn't drawn it yet. He did Love of Oen.

Takahashi: Right.

The art style changes a bit then.

Takahashi: It's a little mellow, it didn't have sex appeal (laugh).

Yes, it changed from there and led to Kasane (かさね) from Shonen Jump.

Takahashi: I don't know about Kasane since it was in Shonen Jump. So, I haven't read that one.

I think it has been collected in a tankobon.

Takahashi: And the title was Kasane? I don't think I have that one.

It is a story inspired by Encho's Shinkei Rakegafuchi (真景累ヶ淵). ^[8] With Love of Oen, he began to attract the attention of editors. He had been in Sunday, he had been in Magazine, and so now he was in Jump. When you think of the Shonen Magazine works, which ones did you see in serial form?

Takahashi: In terms of serials, Lonely Rin.

What was the other serialization? I think it was a series, Sarutobi Rashujin (サルトビ糶修人).

Takahashi: I think it may have been too much for a shonen manga.

I did Ikegami-san's first interview. But at the time, he said he was fighting against being told that his style was too dark.

Takahashi: Huh.

In a sense, he dared to do Sarutobi Rashujin, he said.

Takahashi: I see, that makes sense.

So you'd been reading Shonen Sunday? Then did you read Youthful Ardor (青春徒博/Seishun Tobaku)?

Takahashi: Sure. Actually, I really like Youth Gambling. I just love that imagery. The original story was written by Hisao Maki, right? ^[9] I think the world of the work suits the taste of Ikegami-sensei's drawings. I like it because of that. However, I would have liked to see the story continue. I was very sad when it ended. And after that, it didn't get collected into a book for a long time.

And then one day, I got a call from another source that the title had changed. It was called The Legend of the Beast (野獣伝説/Yajuu Densetsu) or something like that. I had been fooled (laughs).

I see, you've been a Shonen Sunday fan since then (laughs). At the time, Shogakukan was not getting many good works. In a sense, the works that were typical of Ryoichi Ikegami were all Shonen Magazine, including Adachigahara when I had the first interview with Ikegami-san. I was surprised by Powerful Biographies (強力伝/Gorikiden).

I was surprised by the story about carrying a stone up to the top of the mountain. When he carried the stone on his back and the expression of taking a step forward with a lurching motion. I was surprised that there were people who could draw something like this.

Takahashi: For me, I would say Jinmencho (人面蝶).

Wasn't that in Shonen Magazine?

Takahashi: That was a shocking story. Hmmm, it's like the fear of being destined for something else. That's the sort of story he was drawing. This story was the result of feelings of that nature.

Yes, that's right. I felt like he was drawing at the very limit of what could be drawn in a shonen magazine.

Takahashi: That's right. Well, because the main character is so handsome. I think it's really sad.

Oh, I see. Back then, the main character's faces tended to be round, right?

Takahashi: Yes.

Ikegami-san said that he drew those images with Tetsuya Chiba's drawings in mind. ^[10]

Takahashi: Is that so? I never got a dark vibe from it. He must have worked very hard on that, huh?

I was told by many people that his work was too dark. I think the dark side of Spider-Man (スパイダーマン) was very good. In the end, in gekiga, the main characters are usually adults, aren't they? Saito-sensei, for example, was drawing young adults in his work.

I was delighted to see that Ikegami-sensei was the first to feature a young man in gekiga. Ikegami-sensei's main character was a high school student, wasn't he? That's why I was so moved by him.

Indeed, as you say, he might have been the first handsome boy protagonist in the gekiga genre. As I said before I was thinking of the scene in Powerful Biographies where he carries up a large stone like a guidepost. I thought the scene in Lonely Rin where he goes down from the top of the steep stairs on his bicycle was amazing. It was really spectacular.

Takahashi: I think that in Lonely Rin, the female character is cute, but her thighs are abnormally thick or something like that. I think it made me happy as a female reader (laughs).

I liked the excessive realism, though (laughs). In your opinion, when was Ikegami-san's art at its best during this time?

Takahashi: Well, I guess, Spider-Man. Or The Woman in Winter (冬の女/Fuyu no Onna).

The design influence of Spider-Man lasted for a relatively long time. Continuing, until the first part of Man (男/Otoko) in Japan. That influence remains, I think.

Takahashi: I see.

This is around the time that AIUEO Boy (Ⅰ・餓男) had begun. I was thinking of re-publishing AIUEO Boy as a low-priced comic book the other day, so I went back and reread it again. In the beginning, the pictures were a bit cute (laughs). ^[11]

Takahashi: In AIUEO Boy?

Yes, even though it's a very hard story (laugh).

Takahashi: Ikegami-sensei came to Gekiga Sonjuku as a lecturer when he was producing the original story of AIUEO Boy. ^[12] He said something like, "I want to be a better artist." And that was around the time he started using photographic references.

It was around that time that Ikegami-san's style started to change again.

Takahashi: It was changing, but I think the essence has not changed.

I wonder how to say it, it's rarely drawn from his imagination after this. He is referring to photos from this point on.

Takahashi: That's what attracts me. I don't know, in the 70's, there were a lot of dark manga. So it wasn't that Ikegami-sensei was particularly dark. Well, what else is there to say? I had a very vivid impression of the contrast between darkness and snow. I guess I liked that atmosphere.

And then there's Men's Group (男組/Otokogumi) (laughs).

Takahashi: Yes. As a matter of fact, I didn't have enough money to buy Shonen Sunday at the time, so I read it later in book form (laughs). That was based on an original story, wasn't it? It was written by Tetsu Kariya. ^[13] The tools used in the story were very cool. Handcuffs and Chinese martial arts. I thought that kind of thing was really cool. It's kind of a big deal.

I see, but your preference was his earlier work?

Takahashi: No, I've read all the major works. I'm a bit fuzzy on this part, but he had done something before he made I Don't Need Anything!, right?

Farewell to Anger (怒りよさらば/Ikari yo Saraba).

Takahashi: Oh, "Farewell to Anger! Of course, Farewell to Anger. My apologies.

(laughs) You prefer Farewell to Anger?

Takahashi: I prefer Farewell to Anger and after that, I Don't Need Anything! Yes, I'll just say Farewell to Anger. Sorry, I was wrong to have left that out.

I Don't Need Anything! is a story about a boy who kills someone, goes to a juvenile reformatory, comes back, but in the end, it's the strength he derives from his girlfriend.

Takahashi: That's I Don't Need Anything, right, right.

Things like that used to be published in shonen magazines. That was a great time.

Takahashi: It's unthinkable now.

Farewell to Anger, is a story of a son doing anything he wants and not apologizing. I see what you mean. The story didn't want to become a major, influential work.

Takahashi: That's not really true. Thanks to it other books like it have been published.

That's true.

Takahashi: It's a real joy.

Men's Group was a long-running series, so it was not very desirable for the characters to gradually grow up. What are Rumiko Takahashi's thoughts on this?

Takahashi: Nothing really, for better or worse. That's fine, I'll accept it.

Urusei Yatsura was beginning while Men's Group was being published, right?

Takahashi: It was running then. It was the last part. I think Men's Big Sky (男大空/Otoko Ozora) after that was more interesting and a little strange.

That's the one! Back then, when I asked Ikegami-san for a cover, he would draw a close-up of Nagare's face in a size that would take up the whole cover when printed. I remember thinking that a girl might put her cheek on the book like this. (laugh)

Takahashi: Oh, but that's nice. I'm tempted to pull it out. Men's Group was quite popular among high school girls, wasn't it?

It was, yeah. I don't know what to call it. What do you call it today, "boy's love"? I don't think it was overtly depicted but there was a whiff of it intentionally. I think that is the reason why I was so impressed by the way he drew the story. Nagare and Shinryu are enemies and allies, but because they are strongly conscious of each other it is, in a way, similar to love.

Takahashi: In that sense he was on the cutting edge.

When you made your debut, Takahashi-san, and started appearing in Shonen Sunday at the same time as Ikegami-san, at what stage did the two of you first meet?

Takahashi: When did I meet him? We didn't have a proper conversation until much later. It was 2002, I think. Ikegami-sensei won the Shogakukan Manga Award for HEAT and I won it for Inuyasha at the same time. So until then, I was really just watching from afar when we were together. I don't think Ikegami-sensei was at many parties or anything like that. Recently, I met him again at a memorial service for Mizuki-sensei. He's drawing a manga about invisible people.

Adam and Eve (アダムとイブ). ^[14]

Takahashi: I told him how interesting it was, and he said thank you and shook my hand. I was thrilled.

That must have been quite recently.

Takahashi: Very recently (laughs).

When you first saw Ikegami-san from a distance, was he exactly as you had imagined? Was he a little different?

Takahashi: I mean, in the special issue of Garo, I saw a profile photo of him.

That was a nice picture, wasn't it?

Takahashi: I knew from that point on that he had that kind of face (laughs).

I see. Surprisingly, it doesn't feel out of place given his work.

Takahashi: Not at all.

I think I've heard for a long time that you like Ikegami-san's works. I wonder if it was through your editor. You've spoken about being a fan of his publicly though haven't you?

Takahashi: I've been saying it a lot, but I'm just saying it in conversation, I haven't had much opportunity to express it in writing.

What did you think of Nagare Zenjiro?

Takahashi: I read AIUEO Boy before Men's Group so I prefer Takeo Kurekai. I was buying GORO too...

What? You were buying the leading men's magazine, GORO? ^[15]

Takahashi: Yeah.

What is it? What is it about Ikegami-san that attracts you? Is it in terms of his pictures that even when he leaves shonen magazines you still followed him with AIUEO Boy.

Takahashi: Well, there were times when I didn't. But what is it? In the end, it goes back to that Ryoichi Ikegami Special Feature in Garo.

Then, it is already an heirloom of the Takahashi family (laughs).

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Footnotes

• [1] Obake no Q-Taro (オバケのQ太郎) and Osomatsu-kun (おそ松くん) are classic manga of the 1960s by Fujiko Fujio (藤子不二雄) and Fujio Akatsuka (赤塚藤雄).
• [2] Garo (ガロ) was an alternative, avant-garde manga magazine published from 1964 to 2002. It was fundamental in the development of the gekiga style of manga. It was known for publishing the work of Ryoichi Ikegami (池上遼一), Shigeru Mizuki (水木しげる), Sanpei Shirato (白土三平), Yoshiharu Tsuge (つげ義春) and many others.
• [3] The rental book market (貸本/kashihon) filled the roles of libraries in Japan and was a primary distribution method for manga in the years prior to World War II. After the war, libraries became more widespread in Japan during the American occupation, crippling the rental book market and beginning the age of many manga magazines that are still published today such as Shonen Sunday and Shonen Magazine.
• [4] Ikegami got his start as one of Shigeru Mizuki's assistants alongside Yoshiharu Tsuge. Mizuki is best known for Gegege no Kitaro (ゲゲゲの鬼太郎) but in his autobiographical manga Showa: A History of Japan (コミック昭和史) Mizuki includes stories of Ikegami coming to work for him.
• [5] Takao Saito (斎藤隆夫) was one of the pioneers of the gekiga movement in manga and the creator of the legendary, long-running manga Golgo 13 (ゴルゴ13).
• [6] Haruhiko Oyabu (大藪春彦) was a hard boiled novelist. Futaro Yamada (山田風太郎) was known for his ninja stories and mystery novels. Both would be considered popular fiction writers. On the other hand Zenzo Kasai (葛西善蔵) comes from a more grounded realist tradition of writers. Masuji Ibuse (井伏鱒二) wrote Black Rain (黒い雨/Kuroi Ame) about the aftermath of the atomic bombing of Japan.
• [7] Shonen King (少年キング) is a defunct manga magazine that ran weekly from 1963 until 1982 when it shifted to twice-monthly. It ceased publication in 1988. Some of its most noted manga includes Galaxy Express 999 (銀河鉄道999), the shogi manga Gogo no Ryu (5五の龍), Locke the Superman (超人ロック) and Wild 7 (ワイルド7). Shonen King was one of the five major shonen manga magazines for a time alongside Shonen Magazine, Shonen Sunday, Shonen Jump and Shonen Champion.
• [8] Shinkei Rakegafuchi (真景累ヶ淵) by Sanyutei Encho (三遊亭 圓朝) is a rakugo ghost story first published in 1859.
• [9] Hisao Maki (真樹日佐夫) was a writer and actor. He was the younger brother of manga writer Ikki Kajiwara (梶原一騎), the author of Ashita no Joe (あしたのジョー) and Tiger Mask (タイガーマスク).
• [10] Tetsuya Chiba (ちばてつや) is the artist on Ashita no Joe (あしたのジョー) and Notari Matsutaro (のたり松太郎).
• [11] Ryoichi Ikegami's style changes over the course of the serialization of AIUEO Boy due to a two year hiatus between volumes.
• [12] Gekiga Sonjuku was a manga "cram school" where Kazuo Koike, the writer of such iconic manga as Lone Wolf and Cub, Crying Freeman and Lady Snowblood helped train a number of manga luminaries before their debuts. Besides Rumiko Takahashi, other Gekiga Sonjuku alumnai include Tetsuo Hara (Fist of the North Star), Yuji Hori (Dragon Quest), Hideyuki Kikuchi (Vampire Hunter D), Keisuke Itagaki (Grappler Baki) and Marley Caribu (Old Boy).
• [13] Tetsu Kariya (雁屋哲) was best known for his hot-blooded series at the time, however his most famous work would be in a surprising genre. He writes one of the best selling manga of all time, the culinary manga Oishinbo (美味しんぼ).
• [14] Adam and Eve was written by Hideo Yamamoto (山本英夫) the creator of Ichi the Killer (殺し屋1/Koroshiya Ichi) and Voyeur (のぞき屋/Nozokiya).
• [15] GORO, not to be confused with Garo, was a men's magazine that was published from 1974 to 1992.

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